#95 When a Passion for Salmon and Reptiles Creates a Powerful Giving Strategy with Guido Rahr President & CEO of Wild Salmon Center

Sep 19, 2022


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Sybil is joined by Guido Rahr, President & CEO of Wild Salmon Center. Guido shares childhood memories that inspired him to work in the environmental field, and tips for you as a donor to help your favorite non-profit raise money by helping them to hone their pitch. Guido asks and answers the question, is it possible to raise funds from other donors, pool funds, and have trust in each other? You will find yourself laughing out loud when you listen to this interview - especially if you like snakes!

 

Episode Highlights:

  • How to help your favorite nonprofit hone your pitch
  • Investing in an organization’s work in the best way possible
  • Raising funds from other donors, pooling funds, and trusting each other.

 

Guido Rahr bio:

Under Mr. Rahr’s leadership, Wild Salmon Center has developed scientific research, habitat protection, and fisheries improvement projects in dozens of rivers in Japan, the Russian Far East, Alaska, British Columbia, and the US Pacific Northwest, raising over $100 million in grants, establishing fourteen new conservation organizations, and protecting 6.7 million acres of habitat including public lands management designations and ten new large scale habitat reserves on key salmon rivers across the Pacific Rim. Mr. Rahr earned a BA in English Literature from the University of Oregon and a Master of Environmental Studies from Yale University. Before coming to the Wild Salmon Center, he developed conservation programs for Oregon Trout, the United Nations Development Programme, the Rainforest Alliance, and Conservation International. Mr. Rahr is a member of the World Conservation Union (IUCN) Salmon Specialist Group and is a passionate fly fisherman and fly tier. He lives in Portland, Oregon with his wife, Lee, and their three sons.

Connect with Guido:

wildsalmoncenter.org 

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 Full Transcript

Welcome to the Do Your Good podcast series. In this podcast series, you'll hear from me, Sybil, and other experts in the field to help you make your money matter and make a huge difference in the world. I come to you with over 2 decades of experience as a person who's helped donors give away over $45 million in donations both large and small. This podcast series is meant to give you the tools you need to be effective in the world and fund nonprofits and issues that you care about with meaning and purpose and make a true deep difference in the world.

Guido, I'm so happy you're on my podcast. This is fun because you're such a dear friend, and the thing that is fun about doing these interviews with dear friends like you is that I learn something new Because how often do we sit down in a more formal setting and I say, OK, tell me your entire life story? Look, you know, I wanted you on this podcast because I see you are one of the most successful and effective fundraisers that I've ever known. I mean, when I first met you in the 90s, you were like, "I'm going to go work at this organization called Wild Salmon Center," and you were in like a one-bedroom apartment. Remember that you were in this one-room office in the Galleria in Portland, and I was down the hall?

And you're like, "I'm so enthusiastic. I'm going to make this work. And now you have this amazing and effective organization at the Wild Salmon Center. And you build it up with partners, of course. No one ever does anything alone. You also raised money from my clients, and you're effective at figuring out how to talk to me and my clients about the projects you work on.

You also have a stronghold fund, which you call a stronghold fund, which is a fund that gives many grants out to local partner organizations, helping with the campaigns. We worked on so much. There is so much to unpack here. And I just thought the people who listen to this podcast, who are donors and who care about being effective, would want to hear from someone like you who's being creative, thinking out-of-the-box, that kind of thing.

So, before we get into those details, Guido, let's talk more about who you are and, like, what led you on this journey too, like, start this organization or not start. Of course, it was already there, but you took it to the next level, and it inspired you to work harder in your field.

That's a big story, but I'll take it.

That's OK, it's a big story. Hey, look.

Well, I'll summarize. You know, I grew up in Oregon as kind of a strange, you know, kind of introverted, long-haired little kid who lived with his parents. And, you know, this was passionate and passionate about reptiles and amphibians. So, I grew up as a reptile collector. I had a big collection by the time I was like 12, had all the Latin names memorized of all the species, and just loved being alone, tromping around, looking under logs and boards. And I didn't go to, you know, soccer practice or tennis practice. And I was in a big family of five, and my parents just let me wander. But that was always my passion. And then, when I was in my teens, I was given a chance to work for The Nature Conservancy in the Lawrence Memorial Reserve in Central Oregon, and that was my first chance to work in conservation.

Oh, Vito, in your teens.

I believe I was 14 at the time.

Was that during the summer, or did you do school as well?

It was the summer project, and Mom and Dad drove me out to the cabin, where a botanist was working, and they dropped me off.

Oh, OK, cool.

I was there with a cooler full of food, and I walked in, and I worked with his botanist for a week, but anyway, so then I went out every day collecting reptiles and amphibians, and that was my first chance to work in conservation.

Fast forward, I graduated from college, was back in Portland at kind of a moment in my career where I could have gone any direction, and Spencer Beebe, my cousin, said, "You know, Guido? I'm going to allow you to move to southern Mexico, to Chiapas, Mexico Work in Tuxtla Gutierrez with the Mexicans on cloud forest conservation. And there are all the reptiles that you're ever going to want down there. And I knew that because it was a high biodiversity area, and I said, "Great, now what's the pay going to be?" And he said, "That's a very low number, and you're going to have to raise your budget."

So, I thought, "Oh, you're sending me to the Mexican Cloud Forest, and I've got to raise my salary. And he said, "Yeah, get used to it, and that's how you're going to learn how to fundraise. And I said OK And that was the culture of The Nature Conservancy in those days. And it was basically to build conservation programs, and you start fundraising and learning how to fundraise, and it kind of teaches you, in some ways, to be an entrepreneur. And guess where the first fund-raising calls went?

My parents, my grandmother. My uncle, anybody?

And pretty quickly, I got comfortable doing slideshows and raising money, and I scraped together just enough money to pay myself for that first year. But that's what I learned, you know, again and again. I don't know how many little PowerPoints and slideshows and garden clubs and country clubs I did, but it was an invaluable experience for me.

Thanks for that And I do want to take a pause there too, just to sort of think about your story also. There's some humility in there too. Being a person who has some means and privilege, you were able to do some of those pieces, like go to your parents and train, try to be a good entrepreneur, like Tim, fundraise, and I'm always thinking about, OK, that's a really interesting story.

How do we support people who may not be able to go to their parents for fun, for funds, and all that kind of thing? So, I just want to leave that on the table there, and let's keep talking about your story and everything else that we're heading towards and all your success. Then it's also based on a lot of pieces on learning. Being from your community, how do we continue to broaden that community so that we can have even more people from diverse backgrounds able to have the success you've had? I just like that. I like that thought out there.

Well, let me add to that. I don't think I ever got any money from my parents. They were like, you know, you're on your own. Good luck.

Thank you for that. Yeah,

But yeah, it wasn't like they handed me the, you know? No, it was like, you need to go to trouble asking, and you need to be willing to ask anybody that can help you with that threshold of crossing that Rubicon. To do that, you've got to be passionate and committed to what you're trying to do in the conservation business.

If you want to lead a conservation group, if you want to grow a conservation group, if you want to have the freedom to build a program or an effort, you need to learn how to fundraise and how to ask for funding and all those different nuances, and it's not something that comes right away. And the best way to do it is to get out there and ask for a lot of, you know, gifts. $500 to $250.Someone who comes in at $500.00 comes back around again and builds that relationship and that passion.

Thank you so much for saying that, you know, and let's go back to where you were. I like that image of you as the nerdy little kid looking at reptiles.

Oh, I mean

I love that You know, see, I learned something new. I didn't know that about you, but

Are you kidding me? I was every parent's caution.

No one ever talks about that.

When I was growing up in my teens, I was every parent's cautionary tale.

They're like, "Oh, don't be like keto, even though now you're on this rocker. 

Oh no, not there. No, don't end up like him You know this weird little kid? I had the tinted glasses, and I had my collection.

Oh, that's awesome. I want pictures. I want a picture. Do you have any pictures of you when you were that age?

Oh, I've got lots of pictures.

Oh, gosh.

You have high signs.

I mean, I came, I'll never forget, you know, just to give you a sense of the kind of parents I had, that supported my strange, bizarre obsessions when we moved from Oregon to Minnesota when I was 11 years old And for me, it was a jarring and painful move because the reptiles and amphibians of Minnesota are kind of boring, and it's flat and you've got painted turtles and Garter snakes and, you know, nothing like Oregon.

which has some cool species. So, Mom and Dad came back out to Oregon from Venice. And I said, "Can you please, mom and dad, do me a favor? Just bring me back a bull snake. A bull snake, also known as a Gopher snake, is a large, constricting snake native to the high desert that looks a lot like a rattlesnake.

It can even rattle its tail like a rattlesnake, but it's harmless. And I said to Mom and Dad, just catch one, put it in a pillowcase I would tie it in a knot, and just check it through with your baggage, and this is the kind of parent I had. They said, "Of course," "yeah," "of course we'll do it."

So not only that, but they also caught 2 bull-snakes, got in the rental car, went to the airport, flew to Minneapolis, and presented one grateful 12-year-old son with a gorgeous bull-snake singular Mom is at her tennis club the next day when she receives a phone call. On the intercom, saying Mrs. Rohr, Oregon State Police were trying to reach you on the telephone, and she picked up the telephone, and they said, Mrs. Rohr, we have your bull snake.

And she said, "Well, you know, you have my bull snake. And they said yes. And it turned out that what happened was the next person to get the rental car.

Oh, no.

Driving down I-84. On a hot day, the snake was curled up in the air conditioning unit, turned on by the air conditioner. And it crawled onto his lap because he was driving down the freeway. So anyway, that was... I wouldn't say that was a regular occurrence in their household, but we went through a lot of cleaning ladies because of a skate.

I've got some reptiles, so you know, you are also pretty well known as a very amazing fly fisherman. Talk to me a little bit about that as well. It sounds like from the books that have been written about you and all these things, they always focus on the fly-fishing side of you, which I thought you were going to talk about more than the reptiles.

Talk to me About that and how that's inspired you in your conservation work, and then we'll get into the nitty gritty of advice to donors about how they can be the funders

I just grew up very close with a very deep connection with nature, obviously through reptiles and amphibians. And then, but I come from a family of fly fishers, and so my grandfather was a fly fisher. My aunts and uncles and I have a cabin on the Deschutes River in Oregon, and we all gather. And there'd be stories around the dinner table of great moments with big rainbow trout or steelhead and lively discussions, and I just grew up with that, and for me, learning how to fly fish was a very easy step from there.

Because I mean, they're all similar, and what turns me on is the process of being in nature and letting your senses and those more primitive perceptions and behaviors allow them to surface and kind of turn off the white noise of everything and have that connection.

And so, for me, I became very ill in my teens I'm a serious fly fisher and fly tire. I mean, I fish a lot, and I had a television show in college on fly tying, and my professors used to watch it, so I've got all those instincts translated. And so, for me, fly fishing is kind of a portal into the natural world. In this case, a cold-water ecosystem, you know, a riparian ecosystem, is involved. And the more you get into fly fishing, the more you need to know about the behavior of the fish and the behavior of all the species. That they're feeding on the hatches inside fixes the different things that happen on the river, the different phenomena. And as you fish and unpack these things, they're like little gifts. It's like opening Christmas presents, the little discoveries you make.

And so, for me, that's been very rewarding. It helped. To be honest with you, it has also been a really big part of what keeps me going. I get recharged by the river. As a rule, I fish by myself almost always. Now I fish with my children more, but that also means firing the engines to do conservation and keep them, and I've told my staff, our team, to get out of here and get out on the river. You know, I'll get you a guide.

Just spend a day falling in love with that river or that species. And that's been a virtuous loop between firing the conservation passions and having the energy to get things done too.

Well, that links into your organization, the Wild Salmon Center. So, you've built an organization based on this premise to protect what you're calling strongholds. So, talk a little bit about what your organization is doing fundamentally and why you think that's helped.

Yeah, I will. That's a great question, civil. So here is our mission. is too secure. The most important aspect is long-term security. and healthy remaining salmon ecosystems across the Pacific Rim. So, we're targeting the last best salmon watersheds, which we call the strongholds, in each ecological region of the North Pacific. So, this is the Russian Far East. Alaska, British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, and Northern California. And once we target those watersheds, we're making a multidecadal commitment to protect them and prevent bad things from happening to them. And so, the outcome that we're working towards is to have this archipelago of watersheds that are as ecologically vibrant and healthy in 20 or 30 years as they are today.

But we're targeting these places and our strategies if we start now and are strategic and smart and willing to never give up. And that's kind of why we're known for basically never giving up on a place. We can defend these places against the next generation of threats, and so it's about wild salmon. But salmon is considered the keystone species for these food webs and human communities in these watersheds.

So, by saving the salmon, we're also protecting, in the case of Russia, more tigers, and bears. We also found those 42 indigenous groups that depend on the salmon from those strongholds. And so, it's important for them too, as a food security issue for indigenous groups and us. So, there's a lot of value in the strategy.

All right, so let's transition now Guido into This is also fascinating. I've never heard your story, for example, with the snake in the car. I would love you to talk about two things. One is, how do you hone your pitch? How do you make sure now that you're doing such a darn good job at it? You know, making sure that the donor you're talking to is hearing about the issues they care about? I want to understand how you do that. And then I also want you to give donors Advice like OK What is an example of your favorite donor relationship where a donor is working with you and it's going on all cylinders? And then an example of where it's like, oh, this hasn't worked that well, we don't have to name everything confidential, but yeah. Let's talk about the positive first What do you feel when you’re pitching and landing? And your relationship with the donor is working well. What is it that makes you happy there? And then we'll talk about the challenges.

Yeah, I mean, I think what's worked for me in fundraising is our first thing, I will say, is clarity, because a lot of asks are complicated, and the donors often understand less than we think they do about the context and the strategy and so on, so I keep things simple and the stronghold strategy. It is really simple, and the outcomes are clear, so that's that. That's helped me. It's not tricky. It's not, you know, I can say it in an elevator.

And people seem to get it right away, and that's been important for us The second thing, I think, in the communication with donors is just to be clear on a sense of the urgency, a sense that the organization can deliver on what we said we're going to do and the outcome, I mean what it looks like when it's done, and I think it is a way of articulating the importance of conservation initiatives.

I think it's important to be able to articulate what it looks like when we've When we're done, you know, I mean, what is success? What does the outcome look like? Otherwise, you can get lost in the process of just getting likes when we've done, you know, what is success? What does the outcome look like? Otherwise, you can get lost in the process of just getting here, and there's always going to be some of that. I heard Yeah, yeah. But just a clear sense of that, I think, is what donors appreciate. I find that donors appreciate authenticity and passion. I sense that donors don't like to be spun or sold. So, my communication with donors very much comes from a position of strength. I guess it's a position of strength. It's like, "Look, we're going to do this work. We need to do this work. We’re going to do this work whether you help us or not.

If it's a fit with what you're interested in, great, and if not, you know that's OK and we're not trying to twist anybody's arm. That's not very compelling in my sense. And, you know, when it worked well with the donor? If you're sitting back and thinking about, like, your favorite donor relationships with foundations or donors, tell me. Some of those donor relationships, most of them, are relationships that have gone on for a long time because they're based on trust.

I mean, you have to be honest and candid, and you can't be full of smoke. I mean, people, especially people in the position of the donors, those people have been successful in their lives, and they can still see somebody spinning something a mile away or see somebody kind of, you know, kissing up.

You just can never do that You've got to work as a peer and be candid and straightforward. And so are the relationships that work. People who have a deep passion, in my case for rivers, wild fish, and natural ecosystems, do exceptionally well. The second is if I can get them out on the river. You can build a relationship, and I could meet somebody and go and have lunch with them every week for a year and not have the kind of relationship I'd have if I took.

They travel to Tillamook or spend a week in British Columbia, Russia, or Alaska. With me and those trips, you'll find out if you like somebody or not, and you'll know because for me if it's if the donor may be a donor, but if I don't want to be with them, I don't need to cultivate that donor.

I mean, we can say no to donors too Also, what works is having that chance to build some trust in a relationship. So, you know, your favorite relationships have been those where you've been able to have a bond with a donor, where they come, they spend the time to go, you know, you can, yeah, you can understand. I don't know. If I can get them to go with me, to go with me, then you'll find out there's a real friendship there and so my donors have it.

That's right, friendship. Yeah, I love that additional piece. It's like it's a friendship and it's real, not Well, they're very fun, yeah. Investing, right? They're investing, but there's a rule in fundraising that I've heard from back when I was first trained.

Good point People give to people, and you can say people give to or they give to organizations. Right. They look for the best ones, but they're not going to give them to someone they don't like, and especially something they don't want to be with.

So, they're looking for people that are passionate, authentic, can deliver, and are people that they feel good about supporting. And so there it is. That is part of it. OK, go So now tell me about it. bad experience One where it just hasn't worked out with a donor. You're such an optimistic guy. I'm not. Sure, you'll yield it, you know.

Yeah, maybe. Do you think it went right away?

Oh, I can think of one in particular sometimes.

OK, stinker. One, but we can keep it confidential. But the big picture

Oh yeah, I can think of whatever. Some donors, especially if they've worked in the conservation business, know what they want to support. And so, they'll tie you up, and you're moving forward with a strategy to say, but he is a protective series of watersheds.

And they'll say, "I think you should do this," this process, and they'll give you money to do it.

And you're like, well, I can not take your money or if I take your money, I'm going to do something helpful, but it's not the most important thing to do, and you get into this kind of micromanagement, you know, and so that can be a challenge. And the smaller organization that needs the money will often jump through those hoops and then get stuck in almost a contractual thing to do a project for a donor. And they get to keep their eye off the ball.

What is a structural problem in philanthropy? All businesses have a lot of foundations, especially smaller ones, and all sizes require all this reporting from the NGOs and for modest grants, you know, $10,000, $5,000, or $15,000 gifts, and they want you to check all these boxes.

You don't want your people to be spending all their time writing grant reports. Right.

And so, if you invest in an organization and buy into the strategy, you know what unrestricted is important, but also allow the organization to marshal its energy to execute. I mean, I can think of people I know that work in organizations that are where they are, where they, you know, you could say they need to have a grant writing department and all of that.

But it takes up a lot of time sometimes, and sometimes you feel like you're on a treadmill, you know, just trying to get that next grant, that next grant and that does slow down your ability to execute sometimes. I'm certain I want to circle back on that too.

Very well said, and you mentioned at the start of this section of the conversation how your conversations with donors go. It's in your conversation. You have the Stronghold project, which is focusing on protecting some of the most important habitats for fish. And you have clear outcomes. If you have that, then you don't need all that reporting, and your best relationships are with donors, where you've gone on trips where you know each other.

Of course, they're investing in your work, but they're also investing in how you've laid it out. And so, I just think that that's a great thing to talk about where a donor can think. Also concerning OK If the donor is crystal clear about what they want and their outcomes,

Then they can connect with you, who's crystal clear, and then you don't need a whole lot of that end-of-year reporting or all those kinds of things because you are both pretty, and it's clicking like you know what you want.

Yeah, I mean, there's a difference between a donor and a foundation board and a

A very good point.

Foundation staff. That's fair enough, I mean.

Yeah, great point.

So, a lot of NGOs in our space rely too much on the foundation. And so, they give away some of their flexibility and freedom. You know, then, you need to invest in private donor relationships as an NGO practitioner and especially as the CEO of any sized group.

You've got to say I want to have lunch every day or every week with somebody, and those people are coming through the door at $1000 or a couple of thousand. And you can build those up Over time, they're going to give it to somebody.

great fun.

And so, the second part of it is that you want to find yourself in a place where you can be candid about what's working and what's not working. Philanthropy tends to be a little bit cautious, especially on the foundation side, and we need philanthropy to have the highest tolerance. For failure and risk, because the challenges we face are so dramatic and are unfolding as such. We've got to be able to kind of fail fast and fail forward in our space and take more chances and risk things because of the incremental pace. I feel sometimes that these investments are not keeping pace with the rate of the challenges.

As a result, philanthropists should be willing to select organizations. Have a clear mission Be willing to stay with them for long periods, but also don't let them be comfortable with accelerating the rate of learning and failure and moving ahead if that makes any sense.

Yes, it makes total sense and veto, so now One of your goals is to create a strong nation, huh? In the fund and your organization, you're going to be giving grants yourself. Talk a little bit about that as well. You're an organization raising money, and you're giving grants to some of the nonprofits that are helping support your organization's mission. How are you implementing that work?

Yeah, so we, you know, we decided as an organization that instead of opening a local office, we're an international organization and we're working in other countries. And so, we decided that instead of opening offices of the Wild Salmon Center, we're going to back local conservation groups, and we're going to be in the background. We're going to put them up front or support them to be out front and to win.

And we're also going to cultivate donors for those groups. So, the donors have their relationships with those groups that we're working with, which is very interesting and a little bit different from the way it's often done. We think that local groups have the biggest. I mean, potentially, they're the ones that have the most social license and can be the most effective in that context versus big nationals.

We try to give them the most flexibility each week. I mean, we're offering them, you know, science support, communication support, fund-raising, and support different strategies to help strengthen the local groups. I'm not sure if I'm answering your question or not.

Oh, you sure are. Linked to that, though, in terms of the Stronghold fund, how is it? How did you raise money for that fund? Because the other thing I want to discuss is

You know, donors themselves like to collaborate, leverage other people's money, and support because they care about it. It feels like the stronghold fund. You were raising money for that and creating a permit like this permanent fund.

And you did it by raising funds from other donors, who are now essentially pooling funds with you and trusting you to take the next step. So, could you tell me a little bit more about that process, how you created that pooled fund and any potential pitfalls?

Sure, sure.

had to overcome.

Yeah, no, no, that's great So I'll start by saying I've had mentors in my career. Spencer Beebe got me started. He's one of the best fundraisers, and another person, Peter Seligman, who co-founded Conservation International with Spencer and now is the CEO of a group called Nia Tero.

Peter is the best fundraiser in the business, full stop.

He's just amazing and he's been a mentor of mine, and he gave me some really good advice, and he said, "Guido, you need to be clear on what you're trying to do. right?

Not just this project or that project Otherwise, you're just doing projects and you're on that treadmill again, you know? He said What is it you're trying to do, and what's it going to take to do that to complete it? And then you need to be honest with yourself about what it's going to cost to do that. And that was transformational.

You know, because we can spend a lot of time doing lots of projects and we want stuff that's going to stick over decades. So, I wake up in the morning and I, at the end of the day, I mean, I'm thinking all the time about decades now. Because I don't want to spend most of my professional life doing something and have it unraveled after I retire or when I'm long gone. I want it to be permanent and that thought about permanence resonates, at least for those who support us, that we're leaving a mark on the map that will always be there.

So, to execute that, the first thing we did is create a fund called the Stronghold Fund, with a $15 million cap, and we raised that. We closed that fund last fall. No, sorry, early this year. And now, and that's been extremely helpful, the donors realize that we need to have the purpose of this fund.

is to be able to take advantage of time-sensitive opportunities to do conservation work that we didn't have the lead on in time. The flexibility to give small grants to the partner groups to know and so they will know that the money will be there for years. It's been sinking. Fund the stronghold fund.

I'm sorry. I should have mentioned that as a $15 million ten-year sinking fund. So, it'll be 0 by 2032. And then another thing we did is think about how we're going to need to create a permanent fund. In addition to the stronghold fund, which is like a permanent fund to support the investment, I defend our conservation work into perpetuity, and that one we are visualizing at $60 million. The board agreed that it would be a $60 million fund with a capitalization factor of 20.

So, in a decade when we're looking at bequests and charitable plans to give to support this, this permanent Stronghold fund, and we're already up to 46 million in commitments for that, the investment in bequests and the commitment and getting people to think about that

Plus, thinking about the long-term durability of the strongholds is a good fit, and people can understand that. You know, and I have been surprised and grateful that people are like, "You know, I love this river, the Dean in British Columbia or Bristol Bay, so much that just the thought of it being there forever makes me feel good." And our organization is that people know that once we've arrived at the stake, we will never prevent anything from happening to Bristol Bay.

Do you mean, instead of never preventing it? You mean, never allow anything bad to happen.

Never allowed, never allowed.

The double negative, I wanted to make sure.

But that's right. That's right. Yeah, that's

Right, right.

I do those about 10 times a day, but the Tillamook is the same way.

Oh, I do that too. I do that too. Yes, yeah.

It's not like we're going to rush off to the next project. You know, when we're done, we're always going to be staffing and funding. Right. What’s with the way we're thinking? I think that we've been lucky enough to resonate with the supporters, our supporters.

Thank you for describing that because that is an important element as a donor that I wanted my listeners to hear about. And I'm interviewing a whole bunch of folks that are doing things like what you're doing because it's really important to give money to nonprofits that you care about as a donor.

But there are also these really interesting additional pieces that you can potentially support, like pooled funds. Other things like that, and you have this creative take on it where you're creating this pooled fund for longevity that's living in addition to the organization itself. It's for the cause, so I just really appreciate that conversation. Well, this is all so much. You're a fun guy. Thank you for taking the time. Before you leave me today, do you have any other words of wisdom for my listeners or anything else that this conversation sparked in you that you want to make sure you talk about?

I'll just say that from the donor standpoint, you know, you invest in conservation leaders and that you trust them to deliver, right? But also invest in places and go to those places so that you can, you know, immerse yourself in the land and the water and the trees.

And your love for that place, you know, is an important part of this whole equation. And when those two things come together, then you will have the chance of being rewarded by knowing that during our window of time on the planet Earth, we're leaving something behind. It's a real gift and privilege to do something like that So that's all I want to say.

Thanks, Guido, so inspiring as usual. Thanks for taking the time, and I look forward to seeing you again really soon.

Thank you, Sylvia

Maybe not just on zoom.

It sounds great. OK, bye. Bye.

Thank you. So, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed this podcast as much as I did. I enjoyed making it for you. So, if you want to find out more about what I have to offer, please check out www.doyourgood.com and learn more ways to make your money matter. Until next time, do your best. And be well.