#153 An Amazing Twist on Donor Advised Funds with Michael Littledike, Founder of Capita Financial Network, and Daniel Blake, CEO of UI Charitable Advisors

charitable daf donor advised funds invest management philanthropy podcast tax deduction wealth wealth management Nov 06, 2023

Sybil is joined by special guests Michael Littledike and Daniel Blake. They delve into the creative ways a donor can use Donor Advised Funds (DAFs) to their advantage. The interview will shed light on the interplay between charitable giving, wealth management, and personal philanthropic impact. The interviewees highlight key points, including the benefit of receiving an immediate tax deduction when donating to a DAF, and the flexibility to invest those funds for charitable purposes over a longer time horizon. Daniel and Michael also delve into ideas for reforms to ensure that DAFs are used effectively and responsibly.

Episode Highlights:

  • The benefits of DAFs
  • The role of experts in helping donors make informed decisions
  • Answering the concerns surrounding DAFs

Michael Littledike Bio:

Michael founded Capita Financial Network in 2008 with the vision of creating a collection of financial professionals to build a complete wealth management experience for the clients of Capita. Capita Financial Network continues to grow as the company fulfills its mission to "create the optimal wealth management experience." Mike spends most of his time building the company, finding strategic partnerships, presenting on financial topics, and building adventure-packed events for like-minded business owners to synergize.

Mike and his wife, Britney, hold their family close and use their charitable opportunities to support Down Syndrome foundations. The Littledikes support their community and the next generation through UVU's Scholarship Program and the Success in Education nonprofit. They are also passionate about their support for veterans as they fund special experiences and once-in-a-lifetime opportunities through Operation Pay it Forward at their ranch in Texas.

Daniel Blake Bio:

As CEO, Daniel leads the team at UI Charitable Advisors and spearheads initiatives that empower high-net-worth individuals to achieve their philanthropic objectives while nurturing the next generation of social impact leaders. Previously, he was the CEO and co-founder of EcoScraps, which Scott’s Miracle-Gro acquired (NYSE: SMG), where he was a Director for their sustainability and hydroponic business unit. He has led sustainability initiatives with the US State Department, United Nations World Food Programme, Amazon, Google, Home Depot, Walmart, and some of the world’s largest food companies etc.

Daniel has been named one of the top Social Impact Entrepreneurs in the USA by Bloomberg Businessweek and has been featured as the cover story in both Inc. Magazine and Forbes. Daniel studied English at BYU where he currently serves as an adjunct professor and is on the board of advisors for the Ballard Center for Social Impact.




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Daniel and Michael, I am so excited you're on my podcast. I don't know; I just have the greatest guests, and I've just met you recently and am so impressed with what you're doing. I thought it'd be really good to have you on my podcast, especially since October; I'm focusing on donor-advised funds in the United States, and these kinds of special funds are rising. And so, I'm digging into it. I'm interviewing many folks, and you both have this great model where you're utilizing donor-advised funds, especially traditionally. But you have a special twist I thought would be great for you to discuss. 

So, before we get into the nuts and bolts, the donor advised on the fund model you're using and how you're working on it. Let's talk more about who you guys are. So why don't we start with that, and what made you excited about working in this space?


Well, thank you so much for having us today. As you mentioned, my name is Daniel Blake. I'm the CEO of UI Charitable Advisors, and our goal is to work with individuals and help them accomplish their philanthropic missions. 

So, suppose they're the specific issue that an individual cares about or a specific geography. In that case, our goal is to make it as easy as possible for them to support—those issues and those causes, and we generally do that through donor-advised funds. Our donor-advised fund is slightly different from a traditional donor-advised fund, and we have an open architecture, meaning that you, as an individual, can donate any type of asset you want. 

You can assign your financial advisor to manage those assets while in the DAF. The financial advisor can then manage those assets how they see makes the most sense. And then, from a charitable standpoint, there's far more flexibility you can give domestically and internationally; you can support social ventures through impact investing or traditional nonprofits through grants and recoverable grants.


What got you into this field of work? I mean, what's your personal story here in all this?


Yeah, it's a great question. So, my background is a little non-traditional. So, I attended BYU, Brigham Young University, and dropped out to start a company that recycled food waste into lawn and garden products. And so, I grew that to be one of the largest food waste recycling companies in the US and, at the time, the most widely distributed brand of organic lawn and garden products. 


Yeah, yeah, that's super cool. I'm glad I asked.


Yeah. So, I was involved in social entrepreneurship and social ventures from the beginning of my career. Some of our funders were foundations, donor advice, and funds. As well as traditional investors, ever since then, I've been involved in this space, and I've come to appreciate the role donors can play in helping enable all sorts of social and environmental solutions.


That's cool, Daniel. And so now, Michael, how about you tell me about your company and your reason for being like, why did you end up involved in this and all this cool work helping individual donors make a difference in the world?


Yeah. Fantastic. So, my name is Michael Leatherdyke. I founded Capita Financial Network in 2008. I grew up in a small town here in Utah and graduated with about 100 people. I went to college at Utah Valley University and started getting into sales to make good money. I built my wealth in a place where I needed to know how to invest, and I made many mistakes in investing in stocks, penny stocks, private deals, and real estate deals. And this was all during 2008. So, I was able to build Capita in 2008 literally and


Hey, Michael. Michael, we had to pause on that for a second. 2008 is when you were building it. That was quite a tumultuous time in the United States. So, interesting story there, huh?


And basically, I could watch the world fall apart and build my business how I wanted it to. Not only as an investor myself, but I wanted to help others around me, my family and friends. And then, of course, we built from there, but I felt like there was. There was a market gap regarding getting true financial advice and having a wealth advisor who could sit down with you and truly give you advice rather than sell you a product. 

So, we built CAPITA out of that, and today, we have 40 employees, 15 advisors, and about 1.5 billion under management. I think we manage about 2,000 to 2,500 households. So, we're able to help a lot of individuals, you know, toe to toe, knee to knee here in the office or over Zoom, where we're where our advisors get to know these families and look at their overall plan, whether it's real estate, private deals, or stocks. And then, of course, tax planning and philanthropic needs, and we can kind of get into the weeds with them. And that's where, of course, these donor-advised funds come in handy for us.


And now for an ad. But don't go away because there's so much more to discuss. 

Well, Michael, tell me a little about why you are different from, for example, a community foundation or other institutions that offer some of the similar products you offer. What's the difference, and what's the similarity?


CAPITA is a registered investment advisory firm, basically a wealth management firm, and we're independent and have the same thing. As Daniel mentioned, we have an open architecture where our advisors can do what they think is best for the client.

And, of course, many great registered investment advisory firms are out there. I'm biased because I built this one the way I wanted, but I can pull great talent. In places like Fidelity, Goldman Sachs, and Morgan Stanley, we're able to pull some talented folks, and they're able to come under our open architecture, and we use firms like Charles Schwab to take custody. Upon hearing his story, Daniel answered our prayer; we had all these clients who wanted to give charitably, and of course, if we had appreciated stock, we could give the stock directly to a charity. However, the donor advised that a piece of funding was missing, and we would send those people to the largest institution in the world. 

So, you know. There's one large donor-advised fund that's out there. One of the big warehouses. And we lost control of that money once it went there; they were stuck in proprietary funds, which are very inflexible. And Daniel built his business, which was a perfect complement to what we did because we wanted to control the investments. We wanted to help with the cash flow from those investments. We wanted to be a part of that donor advice discussion. And when it comes to putting money into the donor-advised fund, you’re either going to put cash and appreciated security that's publicly held, or even Daniel helps us with many of our business owners that are exiting and help them big time on taxes. And that's something that Daniel's helped us a ton with.


Well, I will go, Daniel, in a second, which is why I wanted you on the podcast. One of the main reasons is that this month, I'm interviewing people working specifically with DAFs and those concerned about gaffs a little bit, too, and I'm trying to get a wide breadth of folks working and interviewing people in that sphere.

So I'm hoping my listeners will listen to all those. Interviews as well. Where do you stand out? I think it's really interesting to see this connection between you at CAPITA and working with Daniel in partnership with another firm.  

So, let's talk more about how that interrelationship works. Daniel wants to talk a little bit more about that.


Yeah, absolutely. So again, our donor advisory fund was built. To give individual donors as much flexibility as possible, that flexibility falls into three buckets. The first bucket is: What type of asset do you want to donate for charitable purposes? Nationally, 86% of all donations going to charities are in the form of cash, which is great. That's simple. It's easy for the nonprofit, but there's a greater tax benefit if you donate something like appreciated stock. Michael also mentioned If you're a business owner. You're contemplating selling your business, even donating a portion before the sale. 

And so, if you can think about your assets a little bit differently and think through that donation and say, how can I structure my donation so that I can optimize from a tax standpoint? It frees up more money to go to those charitable causes. So, flexibility in the type of asset you donate is really important. 

The second bucket is where I would argue flexibility is important, and this is where many people candidly complain about donor-assisted funds. But it's how the DAF is managed while waiting to be deployed for charitable purposes. By allowing you, as the donor, to assign your financial advisor to the account and the financial advisor to manage that account, just like any of your other assets, the DAF comes into every conversation. It's front and center that you're having with the financial advisor. It's a part of every conversation where most donor-assisted funds get set up. No one's managing it. It's out of sight, out of mind. And those deployment rates from a charitable standpoint are significantly less.


Daniel, Let's hover on that for a second because this is, you know, correct. Not surprisingly, this is different from other gaffs. So, if someone's listening to my series of interviews here and thinking about where they want to invest or not, if you're interested in making sure that your financial advisor and your decisions can have a direct impact, this is the kind of question you might want to ask the DAF that you're thinking about investing in. I think Daniel brought up an important point. This is the kind of thing you think about with your company.


Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, to brag about the CAPITA for just a minute. They work with clients of all different sizes, but they bring a level of sophistication that you won't find with a traditional financial advisor. 

And so, if you care about something, they will structure it. That portfolio revolves around what you're interested in. If you want to over-index in ESG, or if you want to use socially responsible investing and apply a negative screen, they'll do that. They're very sophisticated in how they structure all of the investments to meet the needs of their clients, which becomes important when looking at charitable funds.


And now for an ad. But don't go away because there's so much more to Talk about.


When you donate to a DAF, you get an immediate tax deduction. Those assets are no longer yours. They are now meant for charitable purposes, so consider how those funds are invested. 

So, we want to ensure that Michael and his team have all the flexibility they need to make those investments to accomplish what you want as a donor. And so again, just that open architecture, that flexibility. It is important because of the number of assets in donor-advised funds, and you're not donating them immediately to individual nonprofits.

Which leads to the third point. Most people think donor advice funds have greater limitations than a family foundation. If you look at it from an IRS standpoint, the IRS allows DAFs to do almost all the same things as a private foundation. You can support Domestic nonprofits can also support international nonprofits. You can participate in impact investing. You can support social ventures; you can issue credit guarantees or recoverable grants given to nonprofits and social ventures through donor advice funds and private funds questions. 

And so, in the same way, that Michael and Capita have a greater level of sophistication with their investment strategy through our donor-advised fund, we're trying to give the donor that same level of sophistication with their charitable giving. 

So, if you want to support something internationally, you can do that through your death. You want to engage in impact. You can do that through your DAF, so it's all the flexibility in a DAF, but it feels like you have a fully staffed family foundation.


Thank you for that. And Michael, did you want to? Add anything.


No, I just wanted to echo what he said about the need for flexibility and customization, which I think is important. Think a lot. Of folks think. Of a DAF, they think of a 529 plan or something like that where there are limited options, but Daniel's done something very special by allowing that open architecture, even for me. 

I remember it being seven or eight years ago. I had a large chunk of apple and Lululemon stock that had just gone through the roof. My cost base was pretty much as low as you could go, and I had this huge amount of apple and lemon stock, but when I looked at it, I didn't want that much of my portfolio to be those two stocks. 

And so even for me, if I were my financial advisor, what I did was sit down and speak. I want to try and divest from some of these and diversify. Still, I know I'm giving above 10% of my income to charity every year, so why don't I take five or six years of my charitable contributions that I know will make the front load into the donor advice fund? Separate the deduction from the actual distribution of the cash. You know, the actual donation.

I can separate those two things, and I took that Apple stock and that NVIDIA stock or that little lemon stock and put them in the donor-advised fund. Do that, get the tax deduction, and not have to pay the capital gains taxes. Then, once in the Donor Advice Fund, I diversified it into two, three, or 400 stocks and spread that donation over four or five years. Lo and behold, because the market was OK, I got a couple more years of donations from it because of that strategy.


Well, and Michael, that's another important point. And I think it's almost a fourth point because Daniel had Three; this is a fourth one. It allows for that, and then we'll discuss some pushback questions. Don't worry, but this allows you to think creatively about donating, and you've committed to giving 10% yearly. And so that is an interesting conversation around incentivizing you to give and give effectively while also utilizing. The tax structure out there to help you do that makes me wonder if the structure has changed. Would it be a disincentive for you to give quite as much, or, I mean, always, that's my push-back question, as there is much of it? 

So, there's some concern about AFS transparency being one of them. Daniel referred to another: people can get a tax deduction. Right up front, but not be required to give it out at any particular time. 

So, there are two of some of the bigger ones. So, I would love to hear from you who have been so committed to that and see the creativity around it and how it incentivizes giving. At the same time, what are some sideboards? Are you maybe acknowledging some of the challenges people have brought up and thinking through them with me? The tougher questions


Well, I'll. I'll jump in here really quick. I think for me, when we meet with the client, an individual client, one of the first questions I ask is: The first appointment isn't. We're trying to find out: do you already give to charity? Is that a goal of yours?

So, it's not about whether you want to save some money on taxes. Do you like to give? And if you do, what are you doing? It systematically. How are you? So, we try to dive into the individual and see what they're doing. Because I think the number one question Do you want to give, then? Oh. By the way, there's a tax benefit, and, oh, and by the way, there's even a better tax benefit this way. And so, I think it's diving deeper into the tax benefit, which is a secondary benefit rather than a primary one. So that's.


Thank you for emphasizing that. That's true. And with everything, I think that's a lot for people who give, and with everything you do, you're sort of thinking through lots of different motivations, not just how we can get the best tax benefit around. And whether we should keep a mortgage on our house or pay it off or things like that, right, there's a lot of elements to that conversation, so


Yeah, it's almost like if someone needed a straight corner, you know, with a sign. And you give them $20 because you want to help them out. It's almost like asking them, oh, can I get a receipt for that? Of course. That's not why we do it. We didn't give that person $20.00 for the tax benefit. We did it because we cared. But I think the tax benefit is something like that that an advisor understands, you know. The way that the income tax works, it is nice to be able to get that benefit.


From our perspective, if you are charitably inclined, you should do it in the most tax-effective way. And I think that's where working with someone like Michael and his team work is beneficial. Generally, we see that when you structure something in a more tax-efficient way, the amount that the individual gives increases. And so, I do think there's a charitable benefit to that. 

The other big pushback we often see with donor-advised funds is how much money goes into donor-advised funds versus directly into operating charities. You know, the largest nonprofit in America is a donor-advised fund. I don't know this stat off the top of my head, and you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe five out of the ten largest nonprofits in America are currently donor advice funds.


The person who did wonderful research on this, whom I interviewed for this podcast, mentioned that there's a team, but she also references that team. But this is a big concern, so I'm glad you're bringing it up. Can you address it?


Yeah. So, on a macro level, many people will compare donor-biased funds to foundations. The average deployment out of a foundation, so this is for last year, was 6.8%. They have a required distribution of 5%; the median was 5%, and the national average was 6.8%. I don't have the number for 20/22 for DAFs, but for the previous year. 20/21, it was 27%, and the 10-year average is 22%. And so, just on a macro level, more funds are going out of donor-advised funds compared to a foundation.

That being said, you will find really bad actors. I can point to many donor advice funds that haven't deployed anything for years. Still, generally, people are setting up donor advice funds because they're charitably inclined and want to solve social and environmental problems.


And Daniel, I appreciate you reminding my listeners about that stat. The one thing that I do hear with that statistic that's thrown out about folks, you know, with DAFs, they're giving still pretty high and even more than the 6%. Private family foundations, of course, must meet a 5% contribution requirement. The pushback is because there's not a lot of transparency around payouts. That number is skewed to the high level where there are not quite as many people giving that high, but it raises the level there. There are still quite a few bad actors. 

There's a question of how many of the bad actors are there versus the ones that are using the data. In the right way to give, give back, or are they just trying to get the tax-deductible donation and then hold on to it? That money for a very long time over time. That's where, like, there's a question of reform. Should we, for example, support...And you guys are experts at this… would there be some reforms where the public could get a little more? Comfortable with the scenario here, now that gaps are in their eyes and people are looking at it, what would you think of some good reforms that would not quell giving you know? Help people understand the usefulness of this tool.


Really good question. So, you have reforms from the IRS standpoint, but there are also reforms within the donor advisory fund community. So, the IRS code is generally more flexible, which is crazy to say, but It's generally more flexible than most donor-advised funds. The number of internal controls trained at community foundations receive donor-advised funds. Large institutional donor-advised funds have been placed on their donors, which is ridiculous if you want to give internationally through a donor-advised fund; it's really difficult. 

We got started because our founding board of directors was very charitable individuals who were doing some very creative things supporting microfinance in India, you know, having started some of the largest microfinance banks anywhere in the world and working a lot with the criminal justice reform here in the United States, and they all had donor-advised funds. They went to their donor-advised funds and said I'd like to issue a grant for X amount of money to this cause, and their DAF said we won't fulfill that international. We don't do international giving to a for-profit organization. You can't participate in impact investing. 

And so, one of the things we can do that doesn't require any legislation is to give donor advice. Fund providers can provide the same level of flexibility, and they can take it upon themselves to do the expenditure responsibility that the IRS requires to allow for that flexibility, and that's probably the easiest thing to do. And as you have greater flexibility as a donor, you will give more; our job is to remove the roadblocks that make giving difficult.


I appreciate that comment, and that's one thing I'm personally struggling with around these conversations: I want there to be transparency, and I want there to be full accountability, and I want to be sure that we're supporting people to give and not having them feel guilty and not having people feel people want to be charitable, just like Michael says. When people come to us and say they want to be charitable, you're listening to this podcast, my listeners, because you want to be charitable and give well. And so that's the kind of thing I want to have. That's why I'm so happy we're talking about this. Michael, do you have anything to add?


I would say the only one of the things I was thinking a lot about when you start comparing and contrasting, you know, public foundations or just foundations in general, 501C3s versus a donor-advised fund is that I have a lot of clients—friends that own family and private foundations built even me and my wife back in the day. We talked about wanting to create some sort of fund. And I think it makes a ton of sense for your average person, and I think for a lot of my high-net-worth friends, it makes sense for them to build that foundation.

I think for, let's just say, the average, you know, a person with half a million to $10 million, the donor-advised fund gives you that ability to have the flexibility, you know, The power of a family foundation. Still, you can do it through the donor advisory fund and avoid many fees. Avoid a lot. Of the headache and the restrictions sometimes. 

So, it's been easy for our clients to put $20 or $30,000 into a donor-advised fund and get started. And then, as that fund grows, they can get more. 

And so it's been fun for me to watch and see these grow as we manage quite a bit of assets. These donors advised funds; we can watch them at Charles Schwab and help the client with distributions to send to their charity. And so I think it just helps the average person be more charitable. That's what I've loved so much about donor advice funds.


OK, let's go to another question I have for you both. You are both well-versed in investing in the DAF structure and ensuring your clients capitalize on the best investment strategies. Moving forward, of course, I am not an expert in investment strategies, so, you know, I just need to make that qualification. But I appreciate everything that you have to offer these folks. 

So the next question I have for you is: Do you know how to navigate? So let's say a person comes to you and says we care about natural resources issues, houselessness, or food insecurity in the house. Do you have experts who can help navigate those questions if the donor doesn't already have nonprofits in mind for where they want to go? How do you navigate that part of things?


I loved that question. That's why I go to work every single day. We have an entire team that's focused on just that. The team here at UI Charitable, as you know, starts.

We start with the fact that you have to love the problem. And so, if you talk to the employees here, they can go deep into different geographies, social areas, and environmental areas. We have a team that will provide the research and do all the impact due diligence, not just looking at the outputs but driving into the outcomes and the unintended consequences you might run into with specific solutions. You know who the best organizations are to support, how you can go on that learning journey with those organizations, and, as a donor, what role should you play in supporting these organizations? 

Now, we will talk to donors about restricted grants versus unrestricted grants and how much more effective those dollars can be. If you really trust the organizations and if, together, you understand what positive outcomes you're driving, then again, if you look at the roadblocks making it difficult for people to give, one is. Individual donors want to have confidence that they are spending their money wisely and sending it to them. They're sending those dollars to organizations that understand the problem, the cultural context around the problem, and that can scale. They're given solutions. So, we do have an entire team that's dedicated to just that.


We love these guys for this fact because we have a lot of people, like, I'll take myself for example, I have. I feel like giving fatigue sometimes where you're getting carpal tunnel by writing checks to so many different foundations, and you do so many things, go to so many different galas, and you're like, what am I doing? What is my family accomplishing?

So, my wife and I have talked about this for a decade, like what should be our cause, and what's been fun is that while we've been trying to figure that out, we've been building our DAF and charitable contributions as time goes on. So, we do have the money to deploy. 

And so, I love how God works and stuff like this because 3 1/2 years ago, we were blessed with a Down syndrome son, and my wife was always looking for purpose and something to do charitably. And it's been fun to see her rally around. We are blessed to have the resources to take care of him and give him what he needs; give him what he needs. But what about other families with Down syndrome kids that maybe have two full-time jobs? What do they do?

So she's gone deep into several foundations and charities that focus on helping different families with their Down syndrome kids or adoption services for Down syndrome individuals. And so, it's been really fun to have my wife specifically go deep into that. And then, has that donor advised the fund to pay for that? But that's something. I was proactive on that, but I could have asked that. 

Daniel. Hey, Daniel. I'm now really interested in this Down syndrome. You know, the area of charitable giving. Can you help me develop five charities I could give to and tell me why he and his team would do that as part of them? Fee that you're. We are already paying the donor advisory fund, so these guys provide a ton of value for our clients.


I love that, and I love Michael. I love the story you just told because one of the things I focus on is that if you are interested in giving, it's important to think about what inspires and gives you. What makes you up in the morning? What makes you care? And that's the place to lean in instead of many times. I also find that when you want to give back, the mistake some folks make is that they should give to these big, heady causes, right? Like something big. OK, we've got to make a difference, but they forget that, you know, no matter what you do and care about, there's a really good cause—connected to that. 

So anyway, I had to go off a bit on that, but I just let that inspire me with your story so much in terms of really thinking. Think about what you care about, and then support the nonprofits trying to make a difference. Area. Yeah, go ahead.


What's interesting about those guys? Fun. What's interesting about that fund that I had is that from the time I donated the capital and, of course, I got an appreciation for it, our lives changed like we didn't know there was a world around the needs of Down syndrome Kids. 

And so, we didn't know until it was placed upon us. So, life does change upon us, and that's why I love that it's been seven years. Before this, I could give an asset to the donor and advise the fund. And then I could pivot a bit, so for our little family, that's been a really fun journey that has taught us a lot.


Well, that's another important point about donor-assisted funds: you might have a little more flexibility regarding when you can give, given that your life changes and you want to be flexible. Daniel, you look like you might want to say something there. I saw you leaning in.


The journey that you go on as a donor can change your life. It will change your family's life, but it is a scary journey. You're not an expert in it. But I think, you know, my one piece of advice, similar to what Michael was saying, is just to jump in. And if you do have questions, reach out to experts. And focus on what is the problem. You know from Michael's Experience having a Down syndrome child. He learned firsthand. What problems gave him a sense of empathy before he jumped into the individual solutions he wanted to fund?


And the other thing I want to emphasize, Daniel, is what you were talking about how you have a team of folks helping think through issues to work on and how you can dig into those. It sounds like your intention in creating and supporting these DAFs for partners is to support them and then give that money to charity.


That's right. You shouldn't have a donor advice fund if you're not charitably inclined. If you don't have the intention of helping address social and environmental problems candidly, donor-assisted funds just don't. It's not going to make a lot of sense for you. 

Not only do we want our donors to give, but we also want them to be very deliberate. We want them to understand the problems and the best solutions. And you know, unfortunately, not every nonprofit is created equal there. There are incredible nonprofits. And then, candidly, there are just some not-very-effective nonprofits. And, you know, we think it's really important that these charitable dollars set aside get put to the best use and are helping the people that need them with very effective solutions.


Great. And being someone, my focus with donors is to support them in figuring out the cause they want to give to, just like in this area, and my expertise in where I help donors with an issue is in the environment and natural resources. 

And so, I've seen that firsthand. Daniel, how helpful it can be to have an expert intermediary, someone like your staff, someone like me, or anybody that a donor relates to; we're the ones who serve as their fiduciary. We are there to support them. Empowering them and supporting them to give to their priority charities and causes is another thing that I think is important. It seems like your offer is to dig in and listen to the donor. What are they? What do they care about? 

And I love the Michael story again. It's just a great example of that. And then. If the donor doesn't already have a lot of expertise in that area, you can help them, so this is Cool! Thanks to both of you for taking the time today to unpack some of them. These are the key pieces of donor-assisted funds, and I hope folks can see that there are so many different ways to think about donor-assisted funds and why I've had so much fun geeking out about this topic because it matters. You know, it matters. 

It's all about: How do we encourage people to give money to worthy causes? Do you both have any final words of wisdom for my listeners? I would love to hear it.


Nothing more than what we've already said, and I just appreciate what you're doing and the opportunity to be on this podcast. Thank you.


The only thing I would mention is that it's similar to what I said previously, but as a donor, you need to love the problem more than you love any individual solution.


That's great advice. Thanks to both of you for all your time, and I hope you have a great day. Rest of your day.


Yes, thank you so much.


Thank you.